Caps are not ships newbies should take any interest in, I don't see Malcanis Law to apply here.

As it stands, I believe this plan, while interesting is going to kill off T2 production in EVE, especially nullsec. There is no possible way to move large quantities of moongoo easily anymore.

This also means that normal cynos in space are going to be extra vulnerable. HOWEVER, this will significantly reduce hotdrops....so that's a plus of sorts.

Judging by all the "SWEET NULL BEAR TEARS :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:"-style comments in this thread I am guessing that people are completely unaware of it despite me going out of my way to post to the contrary.

It's going to have a significant impact, to be sure, and that's something we need to keep an eye on. At the same time, though, people built T2 ships and modules before jump freighters existed, so we're somewhat skeptical of the argument that that T2 construction is impossible without JFs.

Horrible. Just horrible.

Will this help promote the "big blue donut" or break it apart?

By trying to use a dual prong approach I think that in some cases it will probably promote less conflict.

Consider the case of Stain. Already doing logistics down into Stain is a difficult proposition. Making the jump from low sec down to Stain in a JF is restricted to Saminer to T-NN or NRT. After these changes that jump will no longer be possible. The idea of independent corporations and alliances living in Stain is no longer an option. To really survive in Stain for a prolonged basis will require that the Denizens bend their knee to whomever holds Catch. Whomever owns Catch is also the de facto owner of Stain.

Lets consider another region that has NPC space: Fountain. Fountain has long had a history of having independent corporations and alliances living in Serpentis space constantly being a PITA for whichever alliance owns Fountain. After this change however, getting supplies into Fountain is going to be a much harder problem. Jumping from Hophib into Serpentis Space is outside the 5 LY range.


I haven't checked Venal, but I'm betting that Tribute is more than 5 LY wide and jumping there is going to be an issue once these changes are in place.

The only work around I can see is to place towers. But after having towers getting blown up by the sov holders some of these alliances and corps might work out....NAPs.

In short, the dual pronged approach may very well lead to the very opposite of what is intended.

This is interesting that you would say, because around 80 percent of fights are scrapped due to Intel on larger fleets. If those larger fleets can't interrupt a fight before the original parties have finished their battle, disengagement and risk avoidance will be less of a concern, meaning more fights will happen, not less.

Only extremely wealthy players would consider moving capital ships through gates, and even they wouldn't do it because they will be ritually mocked every time they welp because they jumped into a T2 bubble and had to slow boat for 45 minutes.

While you are at it, make it where I can unanchor my POS and fly it around and jump through gates as well..


Just sayin...

Meh, they will manage if they really want to. And Malcanis was writing about improvements and this is frakking big nerf no matter how much rainbow propaganda spin doctors will throw at it.

At least that's how I always saw Malcanis Law. Maybe I'm wrong, I probably am as usual. Why am I keep posting in all those threads without big boy's tramp stamp on my back? Oh wait, I pay for it, that's why :)

As a wh citizen I'd like to say on behalf of all wh residents: hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaa. Delicious tears are delicious

Make it so you can only change stations if your clone is currently an Alpha clone, but you can only upgrade your clone if you're currently in the station with it. A new character, still in their Alpha clone, could jump into nulsec without difficulty (or anywhere, for that matter), but an older character will either have to sacrifice some SP, or will have to hoof it the long way.

Don't worry this will revitalize nullsec since it won't be as easy to drop caps on the small guys F1 monkeys like you that log to jump to a cyno aren't content creators.

Good riddance, can I have your stuff?

I love this whole "We will shut our accounts down." PERFECT, all of the null alliances will colapse and decent into a free for all chaos, truly opening null sec up to the rest of the Eve populus ... This is amazing.

Everything old is new again.

CCP don't be disheartened... as you will notice by looking down the list of negative comments... It's mainly the big entities complaining, so your solution worked, now they can't come into every single engagement that us smaller entities try and have. Ty!

hilariously, the independents are not clever enough to figure out these changes and are filling this thread with joy at what they think is a nerf to us

holy moly is it going to be entertaining when they realize what happened

That logic also suggests that giving ships a 10% chance to explode every minute would be a good change. I don't wholly trust that logic.

As someone who remembers the days of freighter convoys, regional wars, 100 man battleship fights that were coordinated and maneuvered, the harsh unforgiving teeth gritting game that was Eve Online I finally, FINALLY have hope that CCP is breathing life anew into this game.

Why are some of your members whinging and rage quitting on this thread then if it doesn't affect you. I agree, goonswarm will still be able to easily protect its empire with subcapitals, but your line soldiers all seem to be throwing toys out the pram and quitting, in which case you wont have pilots to fly said sub capitals.

Force projection IS the catalyst for many large scale engagements,

It cuts both ways....sure it takes longer to get to the ratters and kill them. On the other hand, it's going to take a lot longer for the sov holders to respond, if they bother to do so at all. Plus they will often need to take gates rather than hotdropping on top of you, which makes it even hard to get surprised. So once you do catch some ratters, the chances of them getting saved approach 0.

Exactly. Now instead of being able to scramble the full Goon fleet on top of you within 5 minutes, they will need to fight you with whatever they have locally and some fast warping cruisers. If you plan it out and have some big ships on the scene, you will actually have the heavier firepower in the engagement. Instead of the Goons being able to project their entire fleet into each system, they will need to learn to fight back with a limited local defense fleet.

CCP Stand Strong with your self... I Love The Changes... Just like so much


Also the crying that is going on is lovely too.

Oh well, another thing just came up.

Apparently you can now roam with carrier, like nidhoggur, which makes around 500m/s on mwd, and with proper fit and implants can warp at 3.89 au/sec (which is higher than warp speed of CRUISERS, not even mentioning lovely handicapped battleships). How the hell you are supposed to counter that in SMALL scale engagements?

LMFAO!!!


My god look at the null bears with the biggest tears in a bucket i have seen EVER in EvE Online.

TBH it sounds more fun.

PS obligatory " Can I az your stuff"

Ive said it before and ill say it again:

Any mechanic that caters to a more casual player will be completely exploited by anyone who isnt a casual player which would break the game for everyone.

I see a bunch of whining in this thread but no alternatives being proposed. If you dont like this change, im sorry but nobody cares about you, but if you have a better idea on what to do, im sure people would be willing to listen.

tl;dr There's now a reason to fight for better space again: sov upgrades will spawn better cosmic anomalies in lower truesec space; cosmic anomalies spawned by methods other than sov upgrades are unaffected.

You sound as if you have a vested interest in keeping the current (s)cap status quo.

My constructive contribution to this thread: can we rename jump fatigue to LE TIRED?

It's about time nullies see a little pain from all the gain of the past numerous expansions.

So... just a thought:
Party A is being attacked by party B, while on deployment somewhere else and cannot respond on time. Party A logs on 200 pilots in ceptors to fly around attacked system to increase TiDi while recalling their fleet. Possible?

Also - how do timers stack with TiDi? A cooldown of 5min could easiy become 50 minutes if TiDi is involved

Glad I unsubbed when I did.

INB4 roaming gangs of supers/carriers becomes the norm.

Seriously this is not that bad of a change. Logistics will be fine. With the 90% reduction for Rorq and JF pilots an 8 jump trip takes 48 min if you wait out the fatigue timer after each jump. This is ment to penalize a group moving say 10 titans to a system that takes 3 jumps in a hurry. they will then be stuck thee for hours unable to jump out. I like this! Gives us a chance to catch them.

Bravo CCP

Rigged cruisers? No. Buuut while we are talking about it...


[Moros, Moros fit]

Damage Control II
Capital Inefficient Armor Repair Unit
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
True Sansha Energized Explosive Membrane

Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Domination Warp Disruptor
Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Tracking Speed Script
Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Tracking Speed Script

Limited Mega Ion Siege Blaster I, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge XL
Limited Mega Ion Siege Blaster I, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge XL
Limited Mega Ion Siege Blaster I, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge XL
Siege Module II

Capital Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II
Capital Hybrid Metastasis Adjuster II
Capital Hybrid Metastasis Adjuster II

Not entirely sure if this will work but my dream of roaming dreads just took a big step forwards. Anyway, 1.7 mil EHP, 3au warp speed, a metric fuckton of firepower, half a minute to align (two nano take that down to 22 sec). Frankly if I can get this things align time down to around a battleships I may use it in baltec fleet in an ultimate show of stubbornness. I shall call it monkfish.

CCP Grayscale what have you done?

Changing the Cyno mechanic changes force projection. punishing people for jumping ships isn't the way forward.

Is this riskier than just jumping like a frog all around the place (at downtime ofc) and nobody can even take a peek?

If yes, then it's better. If not enough, just nerf the hell of it till it becomes.

Why pilot specific (multiple pilots can move one dread across the universe pony express style), instead of hull specific (removes ability to move dread across universe)?

I wish this change was coming tomorrow.

Flying escort sounds fun.... Pilot shipping out with a big hauler, you and your friends escort him and kill anyone who attacks it. You're safer from being blobbed than you once were due to these very changes, it makes interesting content.

Much more exciting than waiting for a fight to kick off on an organised timer and then cyno'ing 100s of ships on top of a fight in a 0.10 tidi system/

That will only provide opportunities for new corps focused on breaking bricks, for a fee.

Not all of Eve are bittervets that throw carriers around to solve all problems. Just sayin.

One day old thread that's already nearly 200 pages long!!

I don't really have time to read it all and give feedback, but had to respond to this from page one:

Jesus H. Christ, what **** are you all smoking on that frozen rock in the Atlantic??

How long are you willing to wait for someone to notice the demand/need and monetize it?

Personally, I see this as POSSIBLY opening up deep space for new comers, even tho you nullies think nobody is supposed to be out here without being part of a larger machine.

Thanks for your input. Next time if you could suggest alternate options that would stimulate conflict more efficiently that would be swell.

tl;dr There's now a reason to fight for better space again: sov upgrades will spawn better cosmic anomalies in lower truesec space; cosmic anomalies spawned by methods other than sov upgrades are unaffected.

Everyone in the game: Please fix game nao?!
CCP: OK We Fix Nao.
Everyone in the game: NO! FIX BAD!

I always thought it was a strong point of eve that each section of space (empire, low and null) depended upon each other for goods etc. . . It made for considerable travel back and forth which in turn brought about non-consensual pvp. By moving towards localization of nullsec, there will be less travel back and forth between empire, low and null, meaning that there will be less reasons for non-consensual pvp. Low will be especially hit hard since there will be less folk transitioning back and forth through low from empire to null. CCP hasnt been focused much on non-consensual pvp of late and in facts seems to be pushing things in the opposite direction with its relatively recent nerfs to crimewatch and now we have the introduction of the DOJO. Over all, I cant say that Im happy with the direction EVE development.

Jita will still be Jita - the largest market in the game. Large volume items like ship hulls will suffer, but it's still ridiculously cheap (space wise) to transport a near "infinite" number of mods from there to wherever you live.

I personally don't do logistics, but there are guys that love doing it and I pay them instead. Black Frog is ridiculously expensive compared to other commercial haulers - most of which can be found in the in-game channel: Haulers Channel.

Assemble enough ore and mods to fill a blockade runner, put up the courier contract, and then go farm or do some other pve activity to pay for the courier contract (in less time than you would otherwise spend moving the stuff).

Senerios:
1) Oh ok, so just unsub the super/titan pilot for a month. Got it.

Leviathread

I say we all boycott the game for 20min. lets say everyone logs off at 11:00 eve time daily and log back in 11:20. that should get CCP attention and drop the changes...... oh wait that already happens....

CCP what are you doing... to many late nights so thinking is not clear??

"Think of the little guy" is a red herring used by large entities when they don't like a change.

Smaller entities do not hold sov now. They will not hold sov after these changes. As long as the 2 coalitions exist, no smaller entity will truly be able to "take" sov. The impact this change will have on smaller entities is irrelevant, because sov-taking smaller entities do not and will not exist.

Good luck with everything, It will be interesting to see what comes out of this.

I only have 2 suggestions, about the discussion not about sov:

#1. Read this article...



People always think they know what they want, but many times people are just being idealistic about themselves. What they say they want (and what would be fun) and what players will actually play are 2 different things.

Consider actual human nature during your summit (one thing to consider, as in rela life, so in game: people don't fight over tings they can just buy). Look at the past, see what people REALLY do vs what they say or think they will do.

#2. Do not over-react to the current situation! . Understand it, sure, but don't think there is any easy fix. You will hear a lot of "fix this one thing and everything will be fine" talk. Don't believe it lol.

Years ago I played a game called mechwarrior 3. It was cool, but because it was based on a board game's theory of balance, certain weapons (when put in a real time situation) were insanely overpowered such as small lasers and short ranged missiles lol. So the developers of Mech4 prenerfed the unbalanced things in their game, causing a vicious swing to imbalance the other way around (snipers, snipers and more snipers).

This is relevant here because in this thread you are going to get a LOT of thinking based on hatred of Goons, Big alliances, Coalitions, the 'blue donut', Capital and Super Capital ships, power projection and all the (truly or falsely percieved) problems of current null. The risk is that over-reacting to these percieved problems might end up making things even worse, in the way that (Super lame and Grindy) Dominion SOV ended up being an over-reaction to the (super lame actually less grindy) system it replaced.

Again, good luck with the summit.

I don't know. Nobody does. It's going to depend on what players do.

IF (and its a big if) individual alliances (and god forbid, renters) start declaring independence all over the map and tearing down the infrastructure of their overlords, this change will make it damn hard for those overlords to stop them. Just can't be everywhere at once anymore. The best you can do is try to stomp one upstart at a time, but any upstart with half a brain will know that all they have to do is wait, and retake everything once the overlord has moved on.

IF (and this is just as likely) everyone wants to continue to hold hands and sing kum-by-yah, this change won't stop them. In that scenario, you're going to see little guys getting periodically curb stomped with impunity, because they won't be able to call for aid from the other side of the map and get it in time.

Either one of those things could happen. Neither of them could happen. That's why they call it emergent game play. We'll have to wait and see what players actually do in adapting to these changes.

tl;dr There's now a reason to fight for better space again: sov upgrades will spawn better cosmic anomalies in lower truesec space; cosmic anomalies spawned by methods other than sov upgrades are unaffected.

I see. It's a shame I never trained prescience to V. Would've been really useful to know how massive emergent systems with thousands of interconnected parts behave under a given set of changes.

What they weren't taking into consideration is that the average 0.0 dweller doesn't really want to fight. They gave people a reason to fight for better space. They can't actually make you do it. They tried to introduce a conflict driver into the game, and failed. At least they tried. Did you have a better idea?

It's the same with this change. It opens up OPPORTUNITIES for folks who are interested in taking some risks and seizing them. It's not going to force anyone to actually do it. If people are happy in their sea of blue grinding away, nothing will change.

Probably because many are of the opinion that anything to shake up the meta is better than the utter stagnation we have now?

I wonder about just how much of this change revolves around "giving them what they have asked for" petulance from CCP, and how much is about trying to combat falling subscription numbers by forcing even more alts on people.

The concept of reducing the ludicrous ability to cross eve in 10minutes flat, I applaud.

The approach, however is so overdone it's like cooking a steak with a flamethrower and napalm, until it's carbonized, when the customer asked for medium rare, but could probably live with medium.

CCP please recognise that this level of negative feedback probably has some rational grounding. Go and rethink, then come back with your homework redone; please don't force us to have 10 accounts just to move the stuff we need from Jita to our bases in null.

but.. but.. thats no fair dude!
p.s. i don't think they need to be nanoed, they will go too fast compared to the freighters

No onesaid woudl be exaclty same as in past. Your point just proves that will be easier now than was back then.


Carriers can go alogn jump freighetrs and protect them from any small attacks and when the scout finds a big enemy forge.. JF andcarriers JUMP over that challenge.



The thing we all mean is SOLO logistics because logistics is as challenging as peeling a banana wil be a thing of the past. Group operations will be more important.

A strong alliance will be one with people oNLINE, not people on jabber waiting so they can hotdrop something.

Sorry but are you that mentally challentged? You are goign to train several cyno alts so that your delay between jumps is 5 minutes instead of 6. Yes 6 is the delay because JF suffer only 10% of the effects.

If you are REALLY going to train your cyno alts all the way to be able to fly a jump freighter for ONLY that. Then I have a large terrain IN paradise I want to sell to you.

By the way, everybody should look at that first link. Look at the author: CCP Greyscale.

Look at the initial claim: tl;dr There's now a reason to fight for better space again.

So how much fighting are we getting? Not much apparently because the very same retar....err Dev is telling us that null is stagnant.

Not exactly a good track record there right?

Or consider this one, also by CCP Greyscale.

In that one he writes,



But how many here now point their fingers at the Dominion Sov system as part of the big blue donut?

So now we have 2 data points where there were claims that mechanics changes would induce a change in sov holding Null...and yet, here we are with Null even more homogeneous and even more ossified.

But by all means please continue to believe that there is a pony in here somewhere.

apparently this one has never heard of travel fit interceptors
this concerns me greatly

Control freak much?

You are 100% correct. Those heavily against the change are really just after some loophole to exploit heavily to keep things the way they are. CCP needs to stand firm against these players and go forward with these changes making sure there is no such loopholes.

All the fear mongering and banging of pots and pans by these cowards needs to simply be dismissed.

I still like that someone is actually posting *maths* to save the rest of us from this barbaric OP change.

I mean if you go to the top of Lonetrek (low sec) and want to jump to Tribute... yeah you can do it after these changes, but there's something seriously messed up when you can only hit 40-50% of the systems in a single jump, while having Jump Cal V (especially compared to the current maxed out jump range for a carrier now).

I've given up trying to worry about this change, as we all know it's coming - hopefully smarter people than I could ever hope to be, can help actually get it watered down - because *words* don't seem to work at all. Get a scaled LY distance nerf instead of a universal cap (like a 9 LY/7 LY/6-5 LY thing), etc. 'cause I've just resolved to go ahead and join a larger entity to make sure I can still actually use Capitals in some manner or another.